What Seth Godin Really Thinks About Social Media
I talked to the best-selling author about tactics vs strategy, the Duolingo owl, and more.
My first job out of college was in human resources. I had graduated with a degree in “Organizational Studies”, wrote my thesis on the organizational culture of restaurants, and really only knew that I wanted to work in food. So when I heard Plated, a meal-kit-delivery startup in New York, needed someone to help with HR I applied.
After a few months of working at Plated, in typical startup fashion, I was tasked with also running the brand’s social media. A normal day included drafting up a new employee’s stock options, spending two hours worrying I messed up important paperwork, and then shooting a flat lay of shepherd's pie ingredients. I very quickly learned HR was not my strong suit. Thankfully I was already falling in love with social media.
About a year into the job, I went on a trip to Portland, OR. I visited the iconic Powell's Books and beelined to the business section. I bought every marketing and social media book I could find. One of them was All Marketers Are Liars by Seth Godin. I devoured it. I remember thinking that I had found the industry I’d want to spend my career working in.
Since then, I’ve read more of Seth Godin’s books. He’s written an impressive 21 best-selling titles throughout his career—This Is Marketing: You Can't Be Seen Until You Learn to See, Tribes: We Need You to Lead Us, and The Practice: Shipping Creative Work to name a few. Instead of prescribing marketing musts, he bends philosophical. There are metaphors and stories. The ideas feel intentionally evergreen—it’s ultimately up to the reader to do the work of filling in the blanks on how his observations relate back to their own career.
When Seth’s publishers reached out about sending me his new book, This Is Strategy: Make Better Plans, I asked if there was any chance he’d chat with me for Link in Bio. To my surprise, he said yes! We talked about strategy vs tactics, Nutter Butter’s TikTok, and approval processes. As you read our conversation, you’ll notice that we have different approaches to a few of the topics—and that’s okay! I view that as a testament to Seth’s work. Just because I’ve read Seth’s books doesn’t mean that I think exactly like Seth. Instead, his provocative frameworks have expanded and pushed and opened up my own approaches to marketing. I think that’s a good thing.
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Rachel Karten: It’s funny that this book is coming out right now because for the first time in my 10+ year career in social media I have been having an existential crisis about the role strategy plays. Everything feels so reactive or based on trends, that I find myself wondering why a brand would even take the time to put together a long-term social strategy at all. I am being hyperbolic but it can be easy to spiral on this! Reminds me a bit of your “strategy vs tactics” point—I think a lot of social managers feel a pressure to move right into tactics. Why is putting together a long-term strategy important and essential?
Seth Godin: A strategy is simple, easy to talk about and hard to stick with. A strategy works with systems and time, and dances with the people we seek to serve. Tactics, on the other hand, change often, can be secret and are about what’s right here and right now.
A strategy for social media might be something like, “we’re going to give our best customers something to brag about and feel proud to share.” An insatiable desire, momentarily addressed. Great brands have strategies like this.
It’s not about hustling for attention. It’s the opposite.
Rachel Karten: As a fan of the way you approach marketing in general and since this newsletter is focused on brand social media, I’d be curious to hear what you think of the current state of social media? Do you go on TikTok and Instagram often? Do you follow brands there?
Seth Godin: My personal approach isn’t particularly relevant… I’m past my prime in terms of being a model for what opinion leaders do. I do think that social media is largely a trap… for users and for brands. It’s purposely built to create insecurity and false proxies, metrics that get people to work for free to support the business model of the social media companies, as opposed to their own goals.
When Wendy’s or Oreo cookies pulls some sort of stunt on a social media platform, it’s not clear to me that they’ve done anything of value. They haven’t sold french fries or cookies, or earned trust. They simply amused a few people.
How do we earn permission, trust, the benefit of the doubt or status? If your social media isn’t doing that, what’s it for?
Rachel Karten: I do think some readers of this newsletter would argue amusing people is valuable! I am curious what role experimentation plays in a strategy. I think about Duolingo. Their old social strategy was posting straightforward language learning and translation videos. One day they broke from that strategy and included a big owl mascot in a video. The rest is history. How do you build flexibility and room for experimentation into a strategy?
Seth Godin: I’m not sure that posting a big owl was a strategy as much as it was a tactic that momentarily drew attention to what they do—which is fill the insatiable desire that some people have for the connection and status that comes from learning a new language or musical skill.
The magic of the marketing world we live in now is that experiments are essentially free. In 1990, if you screwed up and ran a terrible Super Bowl ad, you got fired. Now, if you screw up and send out an email or tweet that doesn’t get a response, you’ve simply learned something.
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Rachel Karten: Right, I suppose a tactic can eventually inform a future strategy. I recently wrote about Nutter Butter’s social success—which, from the outside, can seem totally illogical but it’s working. Could breaking from traditional "logic" actually be good for a strategy?
Seth Godin: It seems like Nutter Butter’s strategy is to build a media platform where the product is a souvenir of how the media made you feel. That no one actually needs Nutter Butter, but you might want to buy some because it gives you affiliation with the humor and oddball nature of their social media.
In essence, it’s a souvenir. And the souvenir business is huge.
The challenge is that it turns a product company into an entertainment company, and that’s not easy to maintain. But it might very well be the best way forward.
Rachel Karten: A big topic that I cover is the approval processes within social media. I think a lot of people in this industry come up against bosses who aren’t willing to try something new or adjust the brand’s larger strategy to make more sense on a specific platform where the rules are different. What advice do you have for getting buy-in for a strategy? I know in #76 in your book you talk about creating the conditions for change, which I thought was really helpful.
Seth Godin: You’re making a great point, Rachel. The thing is, people (and brands) shouldn’t sign up to play a game they can’t win. “We want to be really popular with all the cool kids, BUT, we don’t want to do anything at all that will make the big bosses uncomfortable.”
That’s like saying you want to run a marathon without getting tired.
There’s nothing wrong with a brand saying, “we don’t want to take risks doing crazy stunts online.” I don’t think, for example, that a hospital or big law firm ought to be acting like Nutter Butter.
But if you’re in, you need to embrace the medium.
Rachel Karten: I came across a tweet the other day from ADWEAK, a satirical advertising account, that says “BREAKING: Tostitos Doesn’t Sell Tortilla Chips, They Sell ‘Togetherness’ According To Brand Strategist”. I’ve found a lot of leaders refuse to root strategy in reality. How important is it that a strategy is connected to true insights?
Seth Godin: But of course, that’s exactly what they do sell. The same way that ketchup reminds you of being a kid or St. Pauli Girl reminds you of that day at the fraternity party.
Let’s be clear—the vast majority of the things purchased by privileged consumers who have the ability to shop—to go buy new things—are purchased even though we already have enough. Everyone buying clothes is fully clothed, and everyone buying expensive branded chips has food at home.
So what we sell is a story. Brand speak is easy to parody, but it’s there to remind the team that they better be telling a resilient and emotional story.
Rachel Karten: I loved the idea of “low hanging fruit isn’t” from the book. Can you talk more about that? Why is it important to think beyond the most obvious idea?
Seth Godin: If it’s easy, obvious and safe, it’s almost certainly not going to work, because someone has already done it, and the novelty is gone.
Sequels feel safe, but they always peter out.
Rachel Karten: Okay maybe not the most pressing question but why no page numbers in the This Is Strategy? I can't help but think of some of the points in your book when seeing a decision like that.
Seth Godin: The only reason to make these ideas a book and not something much easier for me, like a bunch of blog posts, is to create the conditions for conversation. If you’re listening to the audiobook and Bob’s got the Kindle and I’ve got the paperback, we can still discuss #147. Page numbers are hard to share across various media.
The book exists to get the conversation started.
Rachel Karten: Thank you so much for talking with me! I have to tell you that in 2014, soon after I graduated college, I went to the bookstore and bought every marketing book I could find. One of the ones I picked up was All Marketers Are Liars. Reading it made me want to work in this industry and tell stories on the internet. Getting to do this interview is a real treat and I’m grateful to you for taking the time! If you could give one piece of advice to someone who is reading my newsletter who might be just getting into marketing, what would you tell them?
Seth Godin: Listen to Rachel!
A few quick notes!
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Loved this take: ‘“We want to be really popular with all the cool kids, BUT, we don’t want to do anything at all that will make the big bosses uncomfortable.”
That’s like saying you want to run a marathon without getting tired.’
It takes work and intuitive thought to see your brand forward (and a couple extra prayers the big bosses will back your ideas)
P.S. “Listen to Rachel” is such a flex I’d make it my LinkedIn banner 😭
“Social media is largely a trap for users and for brands. It’s purposely built to create insecurity and false proxies, metrics that get people to work for free to support the business model of the social media companies, as opposed to their own goals.”
Seth Godin
Wowie wow wow. Ugh, I love him so much. Bought his latest book and really loving it. Thanks for sharing this interview, Rachel!